13 July 2020 @ 02:40 am
Sunshine Challenge 2020 - Prompt 4 (Green) - Take 2  


As someone who likes green, I look at it in comparison with other colours, and I think it gets sadly short-changed. I mean, just consider this:



YELLOW    





    YELLOW



ORANGE    




    GREEN



RED    




    GREEN



BROWN    




    GREEN





I mean, sure, we have names for the different greens. I'd call the lighter one "lime" and the muted one "olive". But they are still considered to be types of green. Suppose you had T-shirts striped like this:


















































































The first one is striped in orange & yellow, the second in red & yellow, and the third in brown & yellow. However, as far as the others are concerned, if you were given any one of them on its own, you'd probably describe it as being green & yellow.

Of course, we do have names for specific shades of green: ivy green, spruce green, emerald green, spinach green and so on; but these are comparable to "canary yellow", "daffodil yellow", "sunshine yellow", and the like. The point is that lime is as different as orange, and olive as different as brown; but neither is considered to be a totally separate colour.

In fact, it gets more complicated when we look at colours that lie between lime (on the one hand) and orange (on the other hand) and pure yellow. Colours that are almost yellow.








You can run a sequence of interpolating these shades between yellow and either orange or (lime) green:















But if you compare them instead with red and its equivalent shade of green, they look practically yellow! (But not quite.)













When you look at them all together, you can see that they're the missing part of the sequence: you need these additional colours in order to get a proper gradation.












They don't have separate names, though. There really aren't enough names for colours.

 
 
 
 
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autobotscoutriella: sunshine challenge[personal profile] autobotscoutriella on July 13th, 2020 11:14 am (UTC)
Oh, that's an interesting observation! I'd never really thought about that before, but we really don't have a lot of names for shades of green.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 08:50 am (UTC)
No, and I didn't even bother to include a set of pale greens comparable to pink and peach and beige.
ship[personal profile] shipperslist on July 13th, 2020 01:43 pm (UTC)
What an interesting read, thanks!
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 08:50 am (UTC)
Glad you enjoyed it!
peoriapeoriawhereart: peacock[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart on July 13th, 2020 01:45 pm (UTC)
And some languages don't even have a word specifically for green- blue and green are timesharing in some languages.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 09:04 am (UTC)
You mean like Berlin & Kay's Basic Color Terms? From which I gather that such languages tend to have fewer colour terms overall.

Still, when green and blue share the same basic word, that doesn't mean people can't differentiate specific shades (e.g. "leaf gr/ue" vs "sky gr/ue"). However, it does seem to me that their colour term really means something more ike "all cool/fresh tones".

I gather other languages combine light green with yellow; or light green, yellow, and orange. Which I guess is basically "bright tones", as compared to "hot" or "dark/cold".
peoriapeoriawhereart: gnomen[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart on July 14th, 2020 09:51 am (UTC)
Note:I'm not fluent in any languages with this feature. And it's a feature my prof was insufficiently aware of that his ethnographic projects never delved into it.

Orange is a specificity of color with historical antecedents in English--it existed before that but without the name.

I seem to recall there is a green indigo will make with specialized mordanting, though it could be stage it looks green but dries blue. (I never dyed with indigo, it's a very specialized process.)

Arsenic green was very famous as a wall paper color (I think that's the 'modern' term, just to remind people to Be Careful. The actual names might be too seductive.)

But yeah, the intimation is that some languages have fewer color terms. Again, I don't know the languages used as examples, and have come to question how much of what's been found is artifacts of what was taken in by those looking.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 07:55 pm (UTC)
As long as people aren't literally (i.e. biologically) colour-blind, then all the colours exist, whether you have a name for them or not. The question, though, is how—if you have a name for them—that affects how well you distinguish them from other colours.

With Berlin & Kay, given that (like you) I don't know most of the languages they cite, I can't say how much their source material was affected by the mother tongue of the sociologists and linguists doing the research they drew on. One thing stuck out like a sore thumb, though. When they dealt with languages that had more basic colour terms than either Berlin or Kay themselves, they immediately had real doubt about it. Because of course no language could have more basic colour terms than English!

Edited 2020-07-14 07:59 pm (UTC)
peoriapeoriawhereart: gnomen[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart on July 15th, 2020 01:45 am (UTC)
I am drawn to Homer's wine dark sea which I seem to recall was associated with some of these sorts of questions, even though as of itself in belongs at the last prompt. ;)

I've had people misunderstand what it means to gain a color word, whether that's picking up one to split the load with the pre-existing hardest-working or gaining orange.

English isn't particularly creative with its color word roster, excepting the raft of specialist terms it acquired along with the empires they resided in.

"Quick, hide the vocabulary, the English are coming!
lightbird (she/her/hers)[personal profile] lightbird on July 13th, 2020 05:00 pm (UTC)
This is really interesting! Thank you!
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 09:04 am (UTC)
Glad you enjoyed reading it!
oldtoadwoman: Kermit the Frog[personal profile] oldtoadwoman on July 14th, 2020 02:57 am (UTC)
💚
I love all your color analysis. (Sadly I don't think my laptop monitor is up to displaying the nuances. Through intermittant work-from-home/work-from-work, I recently learned that my computer monitor at work shows colors in some of our spreadsheets very differently… which makes me worry that all the icons I've created may be slightly off.)

Color names are at their most frustrating when the marketing people get involved (so clothing catalogs and home decor). They'll outright mislabel things or give them entirely unhelpful names like (this is an actual example of a paint chip in a hardware store) "Miami Sunset". I honestly don't even remember what color that was; I just remember being annoyed by it. Orange? Yellow? Pink?

Artist's paints are pretty consistently labeled at least. (So you can order a tube of "sap green" without even looking at a sample and be pretty confident of what you'll get) Of course, that still doesn't give you all the colors, because artist's paints are meant to be mixed. Many brands don't even sell many shades of green, since green can be created so easily with yellow and blue. (Look at how many different shades of yellow or blue you can buy of these paints and how few shades of green are for sale: Winsor Newton color chart)

I always find it fascinating that people recognize "pink" as a distinct color from "red" but cannot make a distinction between a pastel pea green and a deep forest green. I think it really just comes down to the words. (I'm honestly dreading the blue-vs-indigo debate that's about to rage.)
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 09:16 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
Monitors can vary enormously. On this laptop, the colours I've used are correct when I'm looking straight at the screen; but, if I'm sitting up (and looking a bit tilted down at it), then the lightest colours all look like shades of yellow. And, if I'm slouching way, way down, as I do when I've been at the computer too long, then everything looks darker: the gold looks orange; the orange is nearly red; and the same shift with the greens.

Also, monitors need to be adjusted so that white is white and flesh tones look right. Otherwise, one of the RGB components will dominate.

And there's the possibility that the computer is set to treat the old "safe" hexcodes differently from the rest. Darker, to be precise. Once upon a time, screens showed colours differently from the way they do now. The assumption is that the use of a safe hexcode means it's an old webpage.

No doubt there could be yet more contributing factors. I'm no computer expert.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 09:21 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
"I always find it fascinating that people recognize "pink" as a distinct color from "red" but cannot make a distinction between a pastel pea green and a deep forest green. I think it really just comes down to the words."

There've apparently been studies done that show that if your vocabulary doesn't have the words, you have difficulty analysing the colours as separate. A question of organizing the data, I suppose.
peoriapeoriawhereart: Team Stupid[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart on July 14th, 2020 10:08 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
I seem to recall there was a period when pink included some colors we'd consider yellow adjacent-because of the pigments used and differing because of compounding/etc.

Green weakness I think is the most common manifestation of Not Quite Colorblind, though I've mostly caught men being convinced that lighter tones of purple were blue.

There is of course chartreuse. And the Green Fairy of absinthe.

Turquoise is easier to talk about having a name, which distinguishes it from lapis.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 11:11 pm (UTC)
Re: 💚
"I seem to recall there was a period when pink included some colors we'd consider yellow adjacent-because of the pigments used and differing because of compounding/etc."

Do you mean this? I knew that the flowers called "pinks" were so named because of their pinked (i.e. fringed) edges—making their name a derivative of a verb that I'm familiar with from the context of sewing. However, I'd no idea that the colour of the flowers is the reason we call the hue "pink".
peoriapeoriawhereart: Natasha[personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart on July 16th, 2020 12:12 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
Yep. And interestingly, I think that murky yellow-green might be the undercoat that allows for building up good peaches and pinched cheeks complexions.

And, Japanese gained a version of the word for pink from the Dutch, and also use the word white in their construction for a Western-styled dress shirt. Such that pinkwhiteshirt is a gloss for something that exists but Why Words!

Sweet William, which is another dianthus, is quite a bit more strongly hued than carnations (I'm not up on all the subtleties of how what was how when) and their pinking is even more noticeable with being flatter flowers.

But yeah, this is how English sloshes along.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 14th, 2020 09:45 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
"I'm honestly dreading the blue-vs-indigo debate that's about to rage."

Well, as you're a mod for the Sunshine Challenge, I guess you know how the spectrum is being sliced. Giving you fair warning....

I'm planning on making at least two posts next time: one for "turquoise" and one for "blue". As for indigo (which to me is only a shade between blue and purple): I'll have a few words to say when it gets its turn.

You know, if Newton really did mean "blue" to mean a lighter colour closer to turquoise than blue, and then dragged in "indigo" because he needed a word for the darker colour, then his use of colour terms was closer to Russian or Japanese than modern English. At any rate, I've had a run-in or two with those who don't consider "turquoise" to be a basic colour. (Tune in next time for the thrilling details.)

Like Newton, I've sometimes felt compelled to drag in a few novel colour terms in order to label distinctions. For instance, I'll often use "gold" to refer to the golden-orange shades in the last diagram; and "chartreuse" to refer to the golden-greens. However, I'm reasonably certain that other people who use the latter term don't necessarily apply it to the same shade of green. (Oh, just wait till we get to "violet"!)
oldtoadwoman[personal profile] oldtoadwoman on July 15th, 2020 03:30 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
Yeah, it's the classic Newton Roy G Biv split:


Visible Light

"Blue" is a broad term that I think most people will consider contains everything from turquoise to indigo. When you define the rainbow with the traditional 7-label split then you end up calling turquoise "blue" but, personally, when I hear "blue" I'm picturing something closer to indigo. So it's all very muddled in my head. I'll blame Newton, I guess. (I lean more towards indigo dye being the color of indigo, but… indigo flowers edge into purple.)

My biggest pet peeve is when people mix up chartreuse and puce. (If you do a google image search for "puce", there are inevitably a handful of chartreuse things mixed in because so many people mix up the names despite the colors being nothing alike.)
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 06:29 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
"When you define the rainbow with the traditional 7-label split then you end up calling turquoise "blue" but, personally, when I hear "blue" I'm picturing something closer to indigo."

Same here.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 07:37 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
""Blue" is a broad term that I think most people will consider contains everything from turquoise to indigo"

It's been a long while since I've read Berlin & Kay; but, as I recall they asked native speakers to segment a colour array using their language's basic colour terms. Thus a broad range of hues identifiable with that term could be identified. Subjects were also asked to point out the foci for each basic colour. Berlin and Kay found that, cross-linguistically, the foci for colours like red, yellow, green, etc. were fairly consistent, though the range of colours so identified varied enormously. Essentially, the more colour terms your language has, the more tightly you draw the boundaries; but you'll always put the central colour (e.g. the ideal red, the perfect example of blue, etc.) in much the same place.

My recollection is that, when plotting English colour terms, they wound up with a a big gap where true turquoise shades would be. Then again, they didn't consider "turquoise" a basic colour term; so their subjects would not have been allowed to identify colour chips as turquoise.

Without having the book in front of me, I can't tell you what their test subjects picked as focal blue. And, as I recall, they told readers up front that the printing process made the picture of the colour array inaccurate anyway; so that doesn't help much!

When we do the next colour, I'll be sure to do my best to show focal blue and turquoise for me. But it'll be by what I see on my monitor; so there's no saying how you'll see it.   :(
oldtoadwoman: Kermit the Frog[personal profile] oldtoadwoman on July 16th, 2020 01:47 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
they didn't consider "turquoise" a basic colour term; so their subjects would not have been allowed to identify colour chips as turquoise.

Hrmph. Poor planning on their part. I'd probably call it "cyan" instead of turquoise because when I think of colors, I'm more likely to think of paint or ink. I tend to think of "turquoise" mainly as the stone.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 16th, 2020 04:53 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
Preconceptions do tend to lead to poor experimental design.   ;)
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 07:50 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
"My biggest pet peeve is when people mix up chartreuse and puce."

Well, to me, those terms mean something along these lines:







CHARTREUSE
PUCE


oldtoadwoman[personal profile] oldtoadwoman on July 16th, 2020 02:00 am (UTC)
Re: 💚
Yup. "Fun" fact: "puce" is the French word for flea, so it's meant to be the color of a blood-engorged flea.

:-)

Interestingly, if you google "chartreuse" you won't see examples of puce. The error only seems to work the other way around. (I'm vaguely curious about what the alcohol chartreuse tastes like, but not enough to go out and actually buy some.)
abyss_valkyrie[personal profile] abyss_valkyrie on July 14th, 2020 11:52 am (UTC)
Certain shades of green are very beautiful,for me it's emerald.But the thing is,various shades can look good on various materials,like olive green can look amazing on certain clothes, darker greens have a more luxurious look to them. And I can understand the way olive/brown could get mixed up.It's how my mum would say 'wear that brown-ish one' and I'd be like 'I don't have one' and then if she shows it to me,lol,I'd like 'it's green!' This also happens a lot with green/blue transitions for us.XD
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 06:25 am (UTC)
Transitional colours can be tricky to distinguish. There are certain shades that, compared with olive, will look brown; but, compared with brown, they will look olive. Fortunately, they all look great with orange shades, especially burnt orange and pumpkin. I like earth tones.

They just don't go with emerald.

Edited 2020-07-15 06:26 am (UTC)
enemytosleep[personal profile] enemytosleep on July 14th, 2020 04:55 pm (UTC)
It's so interesting to read here and in the comments how people perceive color, and possibly how the available language affects those perceptions. It makes sense, though, that you'd learn to categorize based on the available labels. Very interesting food for thought.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 15th, 2020 06:28 am (UTC)
I'm glad you found it intriguing.   :)
Silver Adept[personal profile] silveradept on July 18th, 2020 03:29 pm (UTC)
Thanks for this. I hope I'm seeing them well and correctly, but there seems to be a lot of variance in the spectrum of "green".

I'm beginning to think there's been an arbitrary wavelength that's been determined to be the unmarked version of the color and everything else is some other shade or color that requires a descriptive adjective or another name applied.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 26th, 2020 11:09 pm (UTC)
"I'm beginning to think there's been an arbitrary wavelength that's been determined to be the unmarked version of the color"

This is the question that Berlin & Kay tried to answer in their Basic Color Terms. They found that, particularly for the most basic colours like RED, YELLOW, and GREEN, people speaking different languages nevertheless all tended to pick much the same wavelength as the unmarked (or focal) colour. However, when demarking the broad boundaries of shades to which the term could apply, they did it quite differently.

There are a lot more details, some controversial; but I think they did a fair job of proving their basic premise. It's actually not arbitrary.
Silver Adept[personal profile] silveradept on July 27th, 2020 04:54 am (UTC)
That's even weirder. So people broadly agree where the unmarked color is, but vary greatly at where the boundaries are for it.

Thank you for the continued color posts, they're fascinating.
greerwatson[personal profile] greerwatson on July 27th, 2020 09:04 am (UTC)
I'm not sure it's actually weirder. It'll have something to do with the wavelengths that stimulate the photoreceptors in the human eye. We have three types of cones; so it'll involve the way they interact.